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What is Worship? ft. Travis Cottrell, Michael W. Smith & Sandi Patty | Dinner Conversations

What is Worship? ft. Travis Cottrell, Michael W. Smith & Sandi Patty | Dinner Conversations

(upbeat honky tonk music) – Our guest today is Travis Cottrell. He travels and sings with
Beth Moore but he does more than sing, he leads worship. And what we’re wanting to find
out today is what is worship? – Yeah, that question which I
think Travis has embodied well in helping to answer that for
musicians but also for people who are coming into the
congregation to understand what is our act of worship through
music and even outside of music? We also have some of our
favorite friends who’ve been here at the table, people like
Sandi Patty who we love, Michael W. Smith, Nicole
C. Mullen weighing in on the conversation of how
they perceive that question. What is worship? – And we have one seat left
at the table and it’s yours, so let’s join the conversation. (upbeat guitar riff) – So you auditioned for the
vocal band when I was leaving, I think. – Yes. – Was it for his part? – Yeah, I’m a baritone. – That’s the best part, yeah. – [Travis] It is the best part. – It is, it’s the glue that
holds the group together. But you’re doing the praise
and worship and you’re kind of a leader in that, from my
vantage point it looks to me like you’re one of the leaders
of the praise and worship. You write songs?
– Do you feel that way? – You need to get closer. (laughs) – Well, why are you here? (laughs) – Yes, I’m a worship leader. I’ve traveled and led worship
for a number of years. This is actually my 20 year
anniversary with Beth Moore. – That’s been a good job. – Well tell me this, okay,
so in the culture of today you think about music and
you think about especially how worship music has
become a genre, that’s what my interest, like now we say
worship and we automatically assume we’re talking about music. – Right. – But how do you as a leader
of worship through music like in the service of worship
you are helping lead music to help facilitate worship? – Right, that’s a good
differential to make because worship is broader
than the way we use the word particularly in the industry. – [Andrew] Right. – But in my context it is music. Now I try as a worship
leader, you know I’m also a worship pastor at a church,
so my context is worship. Now I do try to consider a
broader definition for my people that I lead week in and week out. – What do you mean?
– So as you’re facilitating – Even as I’m facilitating
– Through music. – Worship through the
Word, worship visually, every component of
worship that’s in the Word we try to kinda dab into at some point. – And embody. So music’s the leader in that for you, but it’s not the end all, be all. – Correct, correct. And even beyond music for
me as a worship leader my goal is to help people sing. I think that’s something that
we lose sight of, you know, we’re not just dishing
out our good songs to them and say, “Listen to this great song.” Or “Listen how great we sing or sound.” No, the bottom line as a worship
leader is to put something in their hands and put words
in their mouths and hearts for them to sing. It doesn’t really matter how
good we sound or I’m starting to get soap box-y, I need
to not get soap box-y. – No, no.
– Go ahead. I wanna hear it. I got a few soap boxes
I’m fixin’ to pull out. (Andrew laughs) – Oh good, good, good. – And I wanna know what your soap box is. – Well you know I just think
our job is to put songs in people’s quiver that
they can use to express something to God. – [Mark] Exactly.
– And that they can do together. – And alone. – And alone, you know. – Well they take it with them. – Yeah, take with them. Not songs that you know, a
song may sound great if a worship leader sings it, but
if the congregation can’t hit the notes, or can’t grasp the
melody, or can’t find some context to respond to God
in some way, then I wouldn’t really call it a worship
song I would call it a Christian song. It may be a personal worship
song for the worship leader or for someone and that’s
great and that has its place, but for me I always have to
come back to the bottom line of my calling is to help people
to connect to God by helping them sing. – What is your criteria for a great song? – For the church? – You know, for his.
– I don’t know. What is yours? You’re a better songwriter than me. – Please.
– One time. – Yeah, once. (Andrew laughs) But that’s all you need. – (laughing) That is true. – Which is one more than you. (laughing) – Hey, question. So I think, well no, I’m asking you. – And me. What are you looking for when
you are going through songs? Because I mean, my soap
box on another topic, I don’t know if I’m gonna.
– Go ahead. – Is that we’ve left, who is
the gentleman we had on here he wrote the book and brought
to our attention that… – The Enneagram? – No, millennials are
the first group to leave the hymns behind. – Robert J. Morgan who did
all the Then Sings My Soul devotionals and the hymn history. – And he was on our Dinner
Conversations and I never noticed this or I kinda saw it in my
own church, but he contends that the millennials are the
first generation to not bring the psalms and the hymns, like
when Isaac Watts came along they still brought the psalms,
and Fanny Crosby came along they drug the psalms and Isaac with them, Bill Gaither comes along, we
haven’t discarded the past. Do you sense that we’re leaving the hymns and psalms behind? – I don’t sense that
in a desperate measure, I do believe, you know, this is just my
personal opinion I’m just kind of rattling off from the top of my head. – Say what you want. – Nobody watches this. (Andrew laughs) – I don’t think we are to a degree that’s dangerous. I think that a lot of us
– That it’ll disappear. – It feels that way to the older folks. – I know it does, but every
generation has had its own musical context. – Right. – You know like, so for Gaither’s
early generation it felt that way to them when
Gaither’s music was new. Chris Tomlin is kinda the
Gaither of our generation, I would say, and Bill before him. So I think it’s all in context. I think we have a tendency to
want what we’ve always had, even in worship. – And what resonated with us
first whether it was as a kid or as, you know like maybe
when Tomlin songs are no longer viable in the church marketplace
but there’s people who grew up on those songs that
was their first introduction to God, when they’re 70
they’re gonna be like, “Where’s ‘How Great is Our God’?” – Right, and I think every,
you know we’re made in the image of God and God is Creator. And so
I think creating is part of our spiritual DNA. So to leave those who are given
the gift of music, and song, and worship to say, “You need
to stay mute and we need to “keep singing this because
it’s what we’ve always sung,” I think that’s unhealthy. I think what God is expressing
through today’s worship writers are great. Again, I think the responsibility
comes with the worship leaders to offer a palate and offer a diverse offering to
their people, you know? And something that they can use to sing. (mellow guitar riff) – It’s so good to be with
Dr. Robert J. Morgan, (laughing) teaching pastor of Donelson Fellowship. And you are an expert on hymns. – Oh, I love the hymns. I
don’t know that I’d use the word expert. – Well, here’s a book that
sold over a million copies, Then Sings My Soul, that is
all these hymns with stories. I’m so excited to have this. – You know the first hymn
ever written — which is recorded for us in Exodus 15 when
the Israelites went across the Red Sea, and on the
other side they just paused and then they burst into
this song — I suppose Moses wrote it on the spot. “I will sing unto the Lord for
He has triumphed gloriously. “The horse and rider fell into the sea.” So that was about 1,400 years
before Christ, so David sang the great hymns and wrote the
psalter, many of those songs, about 1,000 years before Christ. The New Testament is full
of hymns that were written. Every generation of
Spirit-filled believers has to have music. It’s gotta write its own music. – Interesting. – And so you did have
Spirit-filled believers through every generation. God has never left
himself without a witness. So you had for example Bernard
of Clairvaux in the monastery writing “O Sacred Heart
Now Wounded” and some of these great hymns. You have that wonderful song,
probably my favorite hymn, “Of the Father’s Love Begotten,” which we often sing at Christmas. You don’t know “Of the Father’s
love begotten, ere the world “began to be”? – No.
– Oh, you’ll love it. – [Andrew] Sing it, Rob. ♪ Of the Father’s love begotten ♪ ♪ ere the worlds began to be ♪ ♪ He is Alpha and Omega ♪ ♪ He the source, the center He ♪ I can’t believe that I’m
singing to Mark Lowry. (laughing) – [Andrew] I can’t
either actually. (laughs) – But this is the most
beautiful and, in some ways, haunting of all of our
Christmas songs, except for “Mary Did You Know?” and the melody is called
Divine Mysterium. It’s a thousand years old
and the words are about 1,500 years old. – Wow. – And so we’ll have to play it for you. I’ll get you a good rendition.
You’ll never like it after hearing me sing. (laughing)
It really is beautiful. But these were being written
during the medieval time when congregations were not singing; however, you know what was
also happening during that time was the church was becoming hollow. The church was becoming corrupt. – Oh really? – The church was becoming bureaucratic. The priests were becoming
corrupt, the theology was deteriorating, and conditions
in the western Church were getting worse and worse
until Martin Luther came and said that’s enough of
this and he started the German Reformation, which returned
Bible reading in the vernacular to the people. It returned
hymn singing, and it returned that passion that we need
to receive Jesus Christ and be saved by grace through faith. But the failure of the
medieval church to sing and to express itself freely
in the theology through the singing of the hymns
I think contributed to the hollowness, which eventually
led to the Reformation. And then Luther helped
us start singing again. He brought music back to the church. – So out of all these
hymns that you’ve studied, that is your favorite hymn, that one? How did you pick one? – Well, I would think
that depends on the day. – OK.
– Yes. “Of the Father’s Love Begotten,”
it’s hard to love a hymn more than that one. – Really? – But my other favorite,
which also comes out of the medieval period, was written
by Saint Francis of Assisi. It was called “Canticle to Brother Sun.” You know Saint Francis loved nature. – Yeah. – And he took one of the psalms
and sort of paraphrased it into this “Canticle of Brother
Sun,” which has been translated and versified in English as
our hymn, “All creatures of our “God and King, lift up your
voice and with us sing, “alleluia, alleluia.” Do you know that one? – I do. ♪ All creatures of our God and King ♪ It is just so triumphant
and happy, and so really my two favorite hymns come
out of that medieval period when ironically the church
was not allowed to sing. – Interesting. – But you could not silence the
church because Spirit-filled people have got to write their own music. And this is what I tell
people who complain about contemporary Christian music. I say, “You know, I love the
old hymns and I don’t wanna “lose them, but we also have
got to love the new music “because if there is ever a
generation that does not write “its own music, then
Christianity is dead.” And what I try to tell people
in churches, they don’t listen very well, but this is really
my principle: The older people in our churches badly need to
sing contemporary Christian music and the younger people
in our church badly need to sing the old hymns. And if we can get the older
people energized with new music and we can get the younger
people solidified with the old hymns, then we’ve got
inter-generational worship. We have got what I think
Ephesians 5 is talking about with hymns, songs, and spiritual songs. (calm instrumental music) – Dinner Conversations is
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every life is beautiful and worth fighting for. (gentle instrumental music) – Why is it so powerful
in the corporate setting? Why is music such a powerful tool? Because maybe that’s why worship
has become defined as music in some ways because music
is one of the most powerful. – Right, and it comes
from the Word of God. I mean, our model for
everything is in the Word, including worship, especially worship. You know, people are marching
around walls and declaring the power of God in song and
God is announcing the birth of His Son and what does He use to do it? A choir, you know? So I think we take that model
and there’s just something innately powerful like worship.
The presence of God wins. It wins everything. – It unifies people. – And it unifies people, and
so sometimes we complicate it, you know? A lot of times I think we
complicate it too much, but just the bottom line
is we go to those verses that tell us, “If I be
lifted up, I will draw “everyone to Myself.” You know, “Where two
or three are gathered, “I will be there.” And then of course the
psalms like you mentioned, so powerful and they tell
us what to do and we do it. – Growing up, I don’t
remember a lot of sermons, at least like I can’t
repeat them back to you. I may remember an idea, there
may have been a small, little revelation and I was like,
“Ooh, that’s a good nugget.” But I can totally recite the songs. I mean, I can recite the
verses without even the melody. And I would offer that maybe I
wouldn’t have been introduced to God in the same way without music. – Agreed. I think something else that’s
interesting, and you can get this on camera, OK.
You are younger than me. (laughs) I wouldn’t say a whole generation, but those of
– 12 or 13 years us who are our age
– is a generation. (laughs) you know… This is going off
on something. I don’t know. You’re gonna edit this out I think. – Probably not. We love it when people say that.
– I think another thing that those of us who
grew up in church are… There’s something at play and
that is the ability to sing. We grew up where
music education was a huge part of our school, so in the
education system, I went to music class, I think, every
day in elementary school. I think we had it every
day. I can’t remember. Maybe it was once a week. Either way, it was more than
they have it now, which is none. And so, we’re learning music
in school, then we’re going to church and what are we doing? We’re reading music for every
song, and it wasn’t that the songs were lower then. Everybody complains that
the songs are higher now. Well, and some of them are. And that drives me crazy. – But when you look at old
hymns there’s Ds and Es. – But what you’re, yeah, and
what you’re learning to do in school and in church is to
sing a part that is relative to your vocal range. So you know, you’re in 7th grade
or 8th grade and your voice starts transitioning, those
of us whose voice did. (Andrew laughs) – I knew it was coming. – You’re learning how to
navigate that and you’re looking on the paper at these hymnbooks,
and so we’ve taken away music education in schools.
We’ve taken away the music in churches as a result
of that I would say. I would say the beginning of
the fall was taking it out of the school systems. And so now we’re stuck with
no music knowledge in the average worshipper, so that’s all having a play in what we remember, how we learn
songs, and how we sing them, and if we’re able to actually sing them. Are y’all tracking with me? – That totally makes sense. – The difference though between
a worship song and a song like I tend to write, it is the worship songs are horizontal like, no, what’s this? Vertical?
– That’s vertical. – (laughs) Vertical, and the
others are horizontal, right? They’re like from me to you or
they’re about God, you know? A lot of the ones I write are
about Him rather than to Him. – Right, right. – And so the worship, when
it came along, it started… There were some occasional
ones in the hymnal that sang to God. – Right. – There’s a lot of
storytelling in hymnody. – A lot of storytelling and
a lot of longing for home, a lot of heaven songs, and I think when I’m in church and I’m standing there,
because they stand a lot now. I remember when we’d sit and sing. (laughs) And where I’m reading some of
these songs and I’m wondering how did it get by? It’s poorly written, the rhymes
aren’t good, it’s like the old joke, 7-11, you know? – So you’re saying there’s
not songwriter prowess anymore like, there’s not that astute… Are they churning them out? – They are. See, I vacillate back and forth
with that kind of ideology because I’ve had that same
experience, but I don’t think you can tell anyone that every
generation hasn’t had that same experience. – Oh yeah, Fanny Crosby wrote
3,000 songs and five survived. – Right, right. – So time will tell which one of these songs will last.
– Time will tell. And again it goes back,
I say it all the time. – If it sticks, it’ll be here. – Right. – If it doesn’t, it’ll fall
away, but let’s not forget the ones that stuck. – Right. – Like the ones that were great.
We don’t have to bring all of Fanny Crosby’s stuff forward,
but my gosh, let’s don’t leave “Blessed Assurance” behind. – A hundred percent. Again, the worship
leader is the gatekeeper. You know, it’s their responsibility. – The young people need
to know those songs. – But I think they do more than
we give them credit, as well. I would debate that it’s not
being left behind at all. – I hope not. – One, I have a love for
hymnody. Now I’m on the older end of who we’re talking about,
but I still experience among people who are in their
20s and even teens who have significant experiences with hymns. And I think that’s because, I
mean, there’s a significant experience with God in it. Do you think that
music informs our theology? – A hundred percent. Absolutely.
OK, when you find yourself in a trial, when you find
yourself where you need something from the Lord, like, “God, I need a word.” You know, the Word says, “I’ve
hidden your Word in my heart “that I may not sin against You.” The Word says, “I’m a stranger
on earth. Do not hide Your “commands from me.” You know, the Word says, “Your
Word is a lamp to my feet.” It tells us. So we hide our
Word, but how do we remember things? More than anything, like
you said, we don’t remember the sermons. I don’t remember
the geography that I learned in 1984, but I remember
Huey Lewis and the News. I remember Phil Collins. We’ll tell you about them later. (laughs) And so absolutely, you
know when we get into those situations in life, we go, “When darkness veils “His lovely face, I rest
on His unchanging grace. “In every high and stormy
gale, my anchor holds “within the veil.” Right? That’s what we go to, and
that’s why it’s important. – Well, and Jesus went there
on the cross. Psalm 22, I think it is. He’s quoting, “My
God, my God, why have You “forsaken Me?” And back in their day, they didn’t read and write, they would
sing them, and they’d start off like I can go ♪ Amazing grace how sweet the sound ♪ The congregation, ♪ Amazing ♪ They do that in the
hills of Kentucky still. Tony Campolo is the one that
brought this to my attention, that He’s on the cross and
He starts quoting Psalm, that everyone there knew it. All the
people knew that because it’s like the way they did it back then. And that is prophesying of
course of what’s happening on the cross. – Powerful. – Maybe He was singing from the cross. – We don’t know. – We don’t know. – Maybe He was singing ♪ Because He lives ♪ – No, He wasn’t singing that. (Andrew laughs) (laughing) (gentle piano music) ♪ A lonely hill ♪ ♪ A lonely hill ♪ ♪ A rugged tree ♪ ♪ A rugged tree ♪ ♪ Time stands still ♪ ♪ Time stands still ♪ ♪ And waits for my answer ♪ ♪ And waits for my answer ♪ ♪ This sacrifice ♪ ♪ This sacrifice ♪ ♪ Is calling me ♪ ♪ Is calling me ♪ ♪ Into a life ♪ ♪ Into a life ♪ ♪ Of total surrender ♪ ♪ Of total surrender ♪ ♪ The power of the cross ♪ ♪ Is moving in my life ♪ ♪ ‘Cause the power of
Your blood has saved me ♪ ♪ The power of the cross ♪ ♪ Still draws me to Your side ♪ ♪ ‘Cause the power of
Your love has changed me ♪ ♪ Oh, let my life be lost ♪ ♪ In the power of the cross ♪ ♪ Lord most High ♪ ♪ Lord most High ♪ ♪ Hope of men ♪ ♪ Hope of men ♪ ♪ You are mine ♪ ♪ You are mine ♪ ♪ My Redeemer and Savior ♪ ♪ Redeemer and Savior ♪ ♪ And all my days ♪ ♪ All my days ♪ ♪ My days are in Your hands ♪ ♪ Are in Your hands ♪ ♪ And all my praise ♪ ♪ All my praise ♪ ♪ Will be Yours forever ♪ ♪ Will be Yours forever ♪ ♪ The power of the cross
is moving in my life ♪ ♪ ‘Cause the power of
Your blood has saved me ♪ ♪ The power of the cross
still draws me to Your side ♪ ♪ ‘Cause the power of
Your love has changed me ♪ ♪ Oh, let my life be lost ♪ ♪ In the power of the cross ♪ ♪ Where mercy was great
and grace was free ♪ ♪ Where pardon was multiplied to me ♪ ♪ Where my burdened soul found liberty ♪ ♪ Hide me in the power of the cross ♪ ♪ Where mercy was great
and grace was free ♪ ♪ Where pardon was multiplied to me ♪ ♪ Where my burdened soul found liberty ♪ ♪ Hide me in the power of the cross ♪ ♪ Where mercy was great
and grace was free ♪ ♪ Where pardon was multiplied to me ♪ ♪ Where my burdened soul found liberty ♪ ♪ Hide me in the power of the cross ♪ ♪ The power of the cross
is moving in my life ♪ ♪ ‘Cause the power of
Your blood has saved me ♪ ♪ The power of the cross ♪ ♪ Your cross ♪ ♪ Still draws me to Your side ♪ ♪ ‘Cause the power of
Your love has changed me ♪ ♪ Oh, let my life be lost ♪ ♪ In the power of the cross ♪ ♪ In the power of the cross ♪ – It seems like there’s an
ability to unify with music, like we have a lot of divides.
Culturally speaking, we have a lot of divides, so those
enter our church too because as people, we are part of
culture who come to church. And it seems like music has the ability, even in a non-spiritual context
or a non-church context, to me it seems like music
has a great power to actually unify, to bring together. Have you seen that in worship leaders? Have you seen divides,
divisions, those kind of things begin to dissipate just
through the course of music? – Yes, I do think, you
know, it’s dependent upon the Holy Spirit and your
leadership’s dependence upon the Holy Spirit because
worship and music also divides. And I think that’s a scheme
of the enemy. You know, I think the enemy, who was a worship
leader before he was banished from heaven,
knows the power of worship. And so where has he in these
recent years of change, and recent I mean from the
90s on, where has he sought to divide churches so often?
– Sure, music. – It’s music. So the very thing
that could provide so much division is actually, just
like you said, what’s meant to unify. And it can, and
it will, dependent upon the Holy Spirit and leadership’s
submission to it, is what I believe. – Leadership submission, that’s
interesting ’cause we were talking about it actually —
I think it was when Sandi was here we were talking
about like what do you do because she’s in this new wave of— – Sandi? (both answer) Patty. (laughing) – She’s in this new wave of
being some kind of, you know, part-time leader, church kind of thing, and a worship leadership thing, and we were talking
about so what do you do? Submitting to the Holy
Spirit, submitting to Christ, that’s an every day thing,
that’s a continual lifestyle decision, but there are weekends,
there’s a Saturday night where I screw up or there’s
a week where my life is not
in line necessarily with God and His plan for me or whatever,
but yet I need to be in the seat on Sunday to lead worship. That’s my responsibility. What do we do with that rub? Does that make sense? I mean, I could involve myself
in shame and I could say, “Well then I’m not worthy to
lead God’s people in music “because I’m still screwed
up in this area, this area, “this area.” But do we still have a place to… I mean, we’re all… – We do. We have to be obedient. I mean, we walk in obedience
to our calling even when we don’t feel like it and especially
when we don’t feel worthy. I mean, who is, right? There is a rightful
understanding of the mercy of God and the level ground of the
cross, or none of us could ever do it, could muster up,
“Oh Lord, I can’t do it.” But there’s a greater “Yes”
on the other side of it. You just kinda push through, you know? I talk to my young worship
leaders in my life a lot about that because they are
so idealistic, you know? (Andrew laughs) Millennials are so idealistic
and things are a lot plainer to them, and so I have to just
go, “You know what, sometimes “there’s a greater ‘Yes’ on the other side “of your obedience.” You get up there and you lead those people as best you can, and God will
deal with you accordingly. – What do you see from
them that is, you say, “There’s a bigger ‘yes'”? Like
what are their dilemmas that they’re facing right now? Are they changed through the years? – No, not really. – [Mark] Or are they all the same? – No, not really, and I was
kinda thinking about exactly kinda that thing that you’re
painting, like when you don’t feel worthy to serve. And they’re going through things
you know that young people go through that are sometimes
a little different than older people, sometimes not, but
just dealing with their own inadequacies and their own
failures and their own insecurities. – Point to David. – Right. – Point to David.
– Exactly. He’s the best. – Yes, he murdered and adultery. (Andrew laughs)
– And he’s a man after God’s own heart. – Yes, Psalm 51, he came
back and God said, OK. Still, He never changed
His mind about David. – Do you remember —
don’t include this — but do y’all remember that project
My Utmost for His Highest? – That Brown Banister did
– Yeah, I remember it. – and Gary Chapman sang that
song “After God’s Own Heart.” – Yep. – That’s one of the best songs ever. – Oh yeah, it’s an absolutely
gorgeous song that I think Michael wrote, I think. – I haven’t heard it.
I’ll have to listen to it. – Oh yeah, you should listen to it. And then it’s Gary. I think it’s Gary (crosstalk)
– It’s Gary and Michael Millett sings a little duet. – I love Gary’s voice.
– Remember Michael Millett? – Oh yeah, and he’s singing
that harmony part on it? – The most amazing background singer ever. – Gary is a great singer too. – Yes, he is. – Yeah, he is. You talk about soul. So we all have a place, like
I think there’s probably been many people who have
reserved themselves or taken themselves out of the ring of
possibility to lead in church in various ways, that may be
in a pastoral way, that may be in just a simple service way
because, “I’m not worthy.” – Well, they got better stories too. Who would you rather
hang around, the prodigal or his brother? – Right. – I mean, the prodigal came
home with great stories. – I know. – The brother always
hung around the house. – I’ve been the brother so
many times though. Sometimes that brings the
worse shame of all when you look around and go, “I
was so self-righteous.” – He didn’t get to go to
the party. He stood outside. That’s how that story ends. He was faithful and missed the party. – So what’s your dirt? (laughs) – I guess my point is we’re all
really both of those people. – Right.
– Yeah, at some point in time, we have been. – Absolutely. (calm guitar riff) – Now you are the…? – Well, I have an amazing
privilege now in this new season of my life to be
the artist in residence at our church in Oklahoma City. And basically what I get to
do is what I’ve always wanted to do and that is teach. – Really? – I really did. I started out
in college wanting to teach and then met Bill and Gloria,
and they said come do this tour and I was like, “OK.” Now 30 years later. (Andrew laughs) And so I’m getting to really
speak into the generation that’s coming behind about
practical things, about spiritual things, about
relating to an audience and what does that look like. – In the context of worship? – Of Sunday morning worship,
but just in general, your whole life. I mean worship
in and of itself is not limited to music. Music can be worship, but
worship is how we live. – Right. – Romans 12:1-2, “I urge you
brothers and sisters to present “your bodies as living
sacrifice, holy and acceptable “to God. “This is your spiritual act of worship.” It’s who we are and how we
live and how we walk every day of our lives. – Which impacts the way
we sing, the way we play, the way we plan. – All of it. – And you said there are 12 words. – Because there are 12 words
all throughout Scripture between Hebrew and Greek
that talk about worship. In the English language, we have one word. It’s so limited, but there’s
12 different words that talk about worship and only three
of them have to do with music. The rest are our body
posture, our heart posture. There’s one that does have to
do with instrumental music, one that has to do with a
sudden eruption of song out of the joy in our heart, but
it all is inward driven. And so that’s one of the first
places that I like to start is just say if you think
Sunday morning is your journey with Christ,
it’s got to be how you are Monday through Saturday,
and then you bring that to what you do. You bring your story on
those words that you say. – We’re not going to live
perfectly even if I’m trying to live out a heart of worship
and try to understand who God is and pattern after that. How do we then represent
ourselves, or that may be the wrong word, every Sunday or for the
service? Is that just an act of surrender? Is that just saying…? – You mean you screw up on Saturday and worshipping on Sunday? (Sandi laughs)
– Right, yeah. – We do it all the time. – Right, but how do we…? I think there’s a lot
– Well you just don’t be so of guilty (crosstalk)
– hard on yourself. – That’s one, that’s absolutely one thing. – Still show up. – You just don’t
ever forget you’re a sinner. – You still show up and you
still press into what is true, whether you really are feeling
it or believing it even in that moment. – Sure. – Do you know what I mean by that? Because there’s times Monday
through Saturday I will have conversations with God
that are not very pretty. (laughing) I wouldn’t want people to hear,
but you often say about the psalms, you know if there had
been Prozac, what do you say? – If David had Prozac,
we’d never had Psalms. (laughing)
– Exactly. – He was up and down, up and down. – But what I love about the
psalms is such a beautiful picture of speaking in
the moment how we feel. – Yes.
– Right. – And sometimes, when my brother
was diagnosed with cancer and passed away, I just
literally said to God, “You know what? “You’re really bad at your job today.” – Ooh. – (choked up) “You are
really bad at your job.” And to just hear Him go, “You know what? “It’s not an easy job.” – Aww. – And I don’t mean that
flippantly because it grieved Him as much as me, but the
freedom to be able to say that and bring all of that
authenticity then when you are leading music in a worship setting. That to me is you just
have to be authentic. – It’s honesty, right? – It’s honesty, and David models that. I mean, that’s the most beautiful
model of what authentic worship looks like. – And repentance, Psalm 51
when he repented and God still said about him, “He’s
a man after My own heart.” – I love that.
– Don’t you love that right there?
– Maybe real communion or the most authentic
communion comes through honesty and our vulnerability. – I think there’s a lot of it.
– That is communion. – because you know what, it’s not for God. He already knows how we feel. – Oh yes. – It’s for us to be able to
trust even our ugliest thoughts, like “You’re really
bad at your job today.” (laughing) “And I’m really sad,” you know? – I heard some preacher say
that years ago, “Has it ever “occurred to you that nothing
has ever occurred to God?” – Oh wow. – Has it what? – Has it ever occurred
to you that nothing’s ever occurred to God?” And that’s when we get home,
I worry I won’t be able to tell Him a joke. He’ll
already know the punch line. (laughing) – Who are you gonna entertain now, Mark? – You know, I love the idea of
telling God a joke one day. – That’s such a level of
knowing-ness that I think we crave for with our relationships.
– But He’s my Father. And a healthy father is delighted when you’re delighted.
– A healthy father, yes. – And is sad when you’re sad. – Every time with my dad.
It’s like to be there beside us ,not necessarily to just repair— – And we only get 80 years
to get this right, right? And we’re almost done. You’re not, but. (laughing) – We’re closer to the 80 and you’re not.
– I mean we’re closer to home. (gentle guitar riff) – What season are you in right now? Do you think this is a
season or do you think– – An older season? (laughs) – Do you deal with that all the time? – Not for long. (laughs) – Do you notice his position at the table? He doesn’t want to look
at each other. (laughing) – You’re 40? – I’m 48. – 48? You look good for 48. Well, I don’t know what 48 is
supposed to look like really. (laughs) – And you have children? – I have three kids, yeah. One’s in college, two are in high school. – One wife? – One wife. (Andrew laughing) It’s our 25th year anniversary. – Ooh. – 25 years wedding, 20 years
with the Beth Moore ministry. – Well, you can do what you’re
doing. There’s no age limit on it really. – Well, you know, it’s funny.
I always tell this joke and it’s not original. I don’t
remember where I got it, but it’s not fair that
pastors are like fine wines and worship leaders are like
Cokes, you know. They get better with age, and once
you open us, we’re like a 10-year plan or
(laughing) something before we lose our fizz. – But I would say like in
just observing you, you have a certain timelessness in the
style of your leadership, like Cindy and I have talked
about this, is very unique in the sense that it has
seemed to always be pointed to serving the church, not
necessarily serving a career as far as a musical, commercial
career, though you’ve had elements of that, etc., come
in and out and will continue to that really. That must
be the core of your calling. – Yeah, you know, I think I
just love people and I combine that with this whole separate
idea that’s kind of connected but kind of not. I love people
and also I’ve never been a vision-caster. Like I don’t
know what I’ll be doing in 10 years. I don’t know what
I’ll be doing in five years. In all of these years
that I’ve been doing this, I’ve just done what was in front of me. – That’s it. – Just try to be faithful
in what’s in front of me. And does that lead to this? I don’t know. I mean, it may or it may not. I mean, I’ve had more failures
it seems than successes in the industry’s eyes, but
at the same time, it’s been a ride I wouldn’t change for
a million dollars. I love it. And I love where I am immensely, you know? I love the chance to be with
this church family that I love week in and week out. That was something that in
the first 20 years of living in Nashville, even though
those were great years and God gave me some great things to
do, I really was missing the chance to pastor people
from week in to week out. And that’s been a real blessing.
It’s been a blessing for my family, for my kids,
my wife to do that. But then even beyond that,
just the ministry with Beth, to be able to kind of see and
kind of measure out what God is doing all over the
country through her ministry, and just in, I don’t know
how to say what I’m thinking. Just like what worship
looks like in a very wide cross-section of denomination
and age, and race, and to be a part of that for the past
20 years, it’s just been such a blessing. I just wouldn’t
change a thing for it. (calm guitar riff) – This is an honest question.
Like I feel like you’ve kinda been mantled, whether you
receive this or not or feel it or not, as kind of in gospel
music as the premier worship leader, you know, or worship
artist, however you want to term it. Do you feel mantled
with that, and if so, do you receive that? Do you like that? I mean, you know, or does it
feel like sometimes an obstacle to making and creating the
music that maybe you wanna do at times? – No, I feel like it’s
over me, and I hold that lightly as well. I can’t deny it. I mean, I’m
not saying that I’m any more important than anybody else,
just saying I think there’s something there, and it feels
so natural and there’s no striving when I’m leading. So there’s that side of me,
and it’s important and it’s something I’ll do the rest of my life. – I’ve always had this thought
that if you think about it, you know music is, if
you play an instrument on acoustic level, is just
manipulating the sounds that are already resonating throughout
the earth as if the earth is singing. So do you think there’s something special? When we plug into that, you
know it’s as if the earth is already worshipping God and we plug into that. Could that be part of what is so unifying about singing together? Because if you think about, go
beyond worship music, go to a U2 show. I mean like there’s
an element of experience, not everyone may point to
who I say God is as their experience in that moment,
but there’s a very spiritual experience happening when we sing together.
– Definitely, yeah. – What is it about singing together that connects us compared
to doing anything else? You could go play board games
with everybody, you know? – It’s astonishing for sure.
It’s a lot of bodies, man. It’s a lot of people singing together. I just think God honors that,
and especially if you’re real unified and everybody
is sort of dialed in, large gatherings, I think moves mountains. Things change, but you know what? Things changed when David
played his harp for Saul too. It’s all really the intent of the heart. Two things that I go on,
what’s your motivation and how’s your posture? The two big things right there. If you’re dialed in on
those two things, I think anything can happen. – Is there something, that
could be an exercise, a discipline, a prayer, a quote,
that has helped you through the years to remind yourself to be… I mean, how do you achieve that level of humility
to really be able to open up and minister, to lead in
service of worship, but when there’s so many platforms? I mean it is a
platform-oriented profession. – I just pray Scripture. I got my go-to Scriptures, you know? “Search me, O God, know my heart. “Test me and know my anxious thoughts.” “Create in me a clean heart, O God.” “Cast me not away from Your presence.” All those. Psalm 139, I’ll just quote
Psalm 139 just driving down the road. I find out that those are
really my most powerful prayers, really. And then sometimes you just
groan. Sometimes you can’t find the words and you just go (groans). Oh God. (groans) (laughing) (groans) You just can’t,
because you know you just, and I think those are prayers. I mean, He knows what I’m
trying to say. Maybe I don’t, but it’s just, “God, I just “I long for You and I know
there’s a destiny on my life “and I don’t wanna miss it.” There’s too much at stake. I don’t wanna miss it. (gentle guitar music) – Dinner Conversations is
presented by Project Beautiful, and we love them. (gentle guitar music) They told us the other day
about those five girls over in Nepal, was it? – Yeah, in Nepal. – And the trafficker comes up
to them, they’re uneducated, promises them jobs because
they’ve just had an earthquake in their hometown and they
speak a local dialect, which limits their opportunities,
so here comes a trafficker and says, “We’ve got jobs in Iraq. “Come with us.” So they get to the border and
Project Beautiful is there looking for red flags, they’ve
been trained in red flags, and the trafficker told the
girls, “Don’t talk to anybody. “Don’t speak to anybody.” Which is one of the things they
do, and so Project Beautiful goes up to the girls and the trafficker and asks them questions. Of course, the trafficker
immediately denies he even knows these ladies. He’s arrested, the girls are
taken back home and taught what to look for, and they were so grateful. And it was before they got into
the sex trafficking, so they didn’t have to go through
25 years of therapy. (upbeat instrumental music) That’s why I love this organization. They intercept them before. – That’s right. They intercept them and
then they educate them about the gospel message too,
which I think is one of the wonderful things. So after they have already
extended this tangible hope of bringing them home, they
then offer this eternal hope. And so we are asking that
you partner with us, that our Dinner Conversations family
comes alongside Mark and me. Go to, and for $30 a month, three
lives a year are rescued, are intercepted from modern day
slavery before they ever get into human trafficking, being trafficked like these
girls in Nepal. They are intercepted and educated.
So for $30 a month, three lives a year. Go to We have a special gift
for you there as well that we’d like to offer
just to say how important this is to us and how important
we hope it becomes to you. – And if we don’t help, who will? Project Beautiful, because
every life is beautiful and worth fighting for. (hopeful instrumental music) – When we say worship now,
like in evangelical circles or just church circles in
general in the 21st century, we immediately have come to
define and associate that with music, right? But that’s only skimming the surface. I know
that’s a big word, but how would you in your life from
your experience with God define worship? – Wow, and I’m gonna go
back to Romans 12 again, and Romans 12:1 says,
“Therefore I urge you brothers “in view of God’s mercy to
offer your bodies as living “sacrifices holy and pleasing to God. “This is your spiritual act of worship.” So our spiritual act of worship
is not necessarily the style of music or the tempo of a
song or if we have guitars, if we have orchestra in it,
or if it makes me cry or not. Really, our spiritual act of
worship is to offer our bodies, our self to Him. And so, you know, all through
the Scriptures, worship entailed a sacrifice, and so for me to
say, “I am not it, but You are,” I choose to go low, not just
in my being but in everything that I am. I choose to decrease
that You might increase. I choose to be invisible so
that You might be seen in everything I do. Worship is a lifestyle. When I’m driving in the car,
when I prefer somebody instead of me taking that spot, you know? When I choose to remember
that it is not about me, but it’s about Him and so, “Not
my will, but Thine be done.” That is worship. Now we can include music in
that and music can be a conduit to lead us into worship, but
music itself is not worship. And I think we have to be
careful because sometimes we want to worship worship. We wanna worship the feeling
that worship brings us or gives us, and to me, that
can be dangerous because we start seeking. It becomes
flesh because it feels good. – Right. – But real worship doesn’t feel good. Real worship is a sacrifice. It hurts the knees. It hurts
the forehead, you know? Real worship puts me in
positions that I wouldn’t wanna necessarily be in. It makes me forgive, you
know what I’m saying? (laughs) That’s what real worship
does. I’m offering everything I have as a sacrifice that’s
not dead, but on one hand it is but is still living,
but is dead, but it’s living, you know? (laughs) So He said that’s our real
spiritual act of worship, and we have to do that, like
Jesus told the woman at the well. The Father is looking
for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. That entails the essence of
what worship is, the breath of life, you know? And according to truth,
the truth of who Christ is and the truth of who we are,
it’s a combination of the two. – It’s like an intersection. – It’s an intersection. – So take it to music. So why
do you think, and this is just your perspective ,opinion, why
is music such an important aid in our service of worship to God? Or even, you talk about these
postures about literally how the experience of worshipping
God will posture us in humility and will put us on our faces. – Because it’s a powerful tool. Music is very powerful. Music can sway the mindset, the mood. It can sway what you think
about certain things. It can open up the spirit to
another realm, good or bad. You know what I’m saying? So it’s a powerful tool. It’s what David used to
chase demons away, so music is a demon chaser, or it
can also be an invitation to demons, you know? So you have to be careful as
to how it’s used, but when it comes to worshipping the
Lord, it is a conduit to have people open up their hearts
to say, “Yeah, I want more “of You, Lord.” So it is very important I
think. We as Christian artists, or artists that are
believers, I think we carry a great weight, and it’s a
great privilege to be able to encourage people in worship,
to invite them into worship by what we do. (slow guitar riff) – I don’t think there’s ever
been a greater time to be alive as a worshipper. I mean, I think we could find
some weaknesses and we could find some holes in this
or that, and they’re all experientially-based, you know? But the end of the day
is I think God is moving. I think He’s pouring out His
spirit on the area of worship and the creativity in music. I do think it’s important to
hold onto that which is good that’s gone behind us. That’s
how we learn and we don’t repeat mistakes, for one thing. But I think it’s exciting
for all of us in all our particular genres and callings,
and I mean, don’t you find it just a beautiful time to be alive and worship?
– Yeah. Well, and I think culturally speaking because
of what we’re experiencing, and I think in regards to the
Gospel and being disciples, we’re experiencing more of a
having to actually express our faith in certain terms. It’s not just a cultural
thing that this is what to be a Christian means, and I
think music is such a powerful and helpful tool in expressing
that in a way that invites people into the conversation. – I miss the hymnal. (laughs) – Well, I’ll get you one. We’ll put Mary Did You Know in it. (laughing) – It already is. – (laughing) That’s why you miss it. He’s trying to sell hymnals, y’all. – No, but don’t you miss it? I remember going to church,
picking it up, “Turn to 232,” and we’d all read, and I know
it’s better now that it’s up there because you’re not
looking down while you sing. But you know, my dad used to
say, “I don’t know if it’s “good or bad, but I know what I like.” And I told him one day,
“You like what you know.” – Right, and at the end of
the day, worship isn’t about what we like and don’t like. – [Mark] Right. – It’s not a preference thing ever. – Right, right, it’s not. So I mean, I love it. I love this day. – Gloria made the comment
one day that the problem is walking into church, you
immediately start worshipping, is that before they got into
Psalms they got through Kings and they told stories of how
the Lord brought them through, and then how can you not praise Him? How can you not worship Him? I think we’re missing some
maybe, I’m just throwin’ this out there, some testimonies
before we go into the worship? Like let me tell you what the
Lord did for me this week. I haven’t heard that in years. At my church, they had a
little testimony time. – At very minimum, how about
Scripture to open up the service that tells the story of our
forefathers and our ancestors that got through it.
– And why we’re grateful. – Right. – Because how would you feel
if your son came, “Oh Daddy, “praise you. Daddy, praise
you, praise you, Daddy. “Daddy, praise you,” and never said why? – I would go, “I love you.
You wanna go to Walmart? (laughing) “Ten minutes, whatever you
can fit in your basket “in 10 minutes you can get it.” (laughing) – But seriously, or if he just
said, “Thank you, thank you,” and never said why. – Right. Well, and the Word
says we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. So that’s part of it. You know, there’s a scriptural mandate
for us to proclaim the worth of God, so that’s where
we get the word worship. Worth, worth worship, worth-ship,
and so something happens. I acclaim it to the character
of God, that as you proclaim His worthiness, you cannot
siphon out the character of God from who He is. You can’t siphon
out His love, His goodness to His children, and His faithfulness. So even as you proclaim His
worth, you end up testifying. You know a lot of people
say, “Well, songs are too much “about us.” Well, you know, we do need to
do a better job about singing songs that just proclaim
His worth, but we can’t help but testify. Number one because it’s a
biblical mandate. Number two, it’s how we overcome in the word
of our testimony, but also, number three, the character of
God forces us to because it’s such a good character. And so we say, “You have done this for me. “I was here and now I’m here. “And I was this and now I’m
this and it’s because of You, “not because of me.” So I agree with you. Our songs need to encompass
all of that, even as we proclaim His work. – It’s hard to get all
that into three minutes though, isn’t it? – It is. Yeah, it is. – But that’s where the creativity and the skill and gifts come in. – It is, and we think of it
as a journey. Like we’re not gonna cover everything in
this little worship set, but we’ve got next time,
we’ve got the next time. So, no. – Our church has started singing ♪ The blood of Jesus speaks for me ♪ and then they go up the octave, ♪ Yeah-da-da-da ♪ – I hope it sounds better at the time. (laughing) – Did you write that? Oh. (laughing) – Oh, this is… Wait for it. He really likes you, and you’re
sweet to put up with this. – I do like you. I mean, you’re,
you know… I feel like this is kind of a project for me. I’ve been wanting to relate to older generations, and so (laughs) so I feel good about this relationship. – I’ve been waiting for a vibrato joke. (laughs) – See, so my vibrato – can swim right through his, I know. – As if you could make a single joke about vibrato.
– His is like a wide, old hollowed out ocean. – His is like an assault rifle. (laughing) – And he likes to sing. (laughing) – I know. It’s a problem. – To learn more about Dinner Conversations, go to – And don’t forget to subscribe
to our YouTube channel. That’ll allow you to get
a new episode every week. Like us or don’t like us
(laughs) and leave a comment, good or constructively criticism. – And if it’s really, really,
really mean criticism, we can delete you. (laughing) (upbeat honky tonk music)

33 comments on “What is Worship? ft. Travis Cottrell, Michael W. Smith & Sandi Patty | Dinner Conversations

  1. This is a very important episode. I watch “Dinner Conversations” on YouTube. I searched and searched so many different ways on my tv app, so that I could see this episode on the Big Screen. Now, I’m watching it on my phone.

    New worship v old hymns is so relevant and important to today, and I believe that both are necessary. I remember learning to read music while in church choir, and am grateful for the experience. And when we sing along with the words on the overhead, we miss out on the harmonies. I envy those who can pick out a harmonizing line and give depth to the songs as we worship.

  2. I really like this dinner conversation. Getting a lot out of it. There are so many many types of worship songs

  3. Awesome conversations! Different views and aspects. I believe worship is a very private way we reach out to God! Some are moved in different ways music in any form will draw you into his presence! I listen to the gvb on YouTube every night and enjoy contemporary music through out my day! Keep up the thought provoking conversations! God bless!

  4. This verse came to my mind during this conversation.

    John 4:22

    “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”

    This is the truth. How can we worship God if we don’t know Him?? Before we even begin to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, we have to KNOW Him and sadly, there are church services that are dead in spirit because the majority of folks don’t really know Him and you can really tell the difference I think in services when folks come together in spirit and in truth and Christ is actually invited to the services…

    Just my thoughts .. 😊

  5. What an awesome conversation! I appreciate the insights given. Loved what Travis Cottrell said about the worship leader being the gate keeper. Awesome conversation. Thank you.

  6. so good to know ALL "worship" leaders have the same questions. exited to share this episode with my praise team. thank you for your honesty and intentionality. love from West Virginia 💙💛

  7. Loved the idea of testimony time/scripture combined with musical worship. Maybe some will pick that up and run with it or back to it. Thankful our worship leader throws us old folks one hymn each week on the screen. Each guest blessed my heart, making it say AMEN! Enjoyed this more than the performance of the national tour of Hamilton I just got home from…. And this was free. Awesome. Note for production team: IMO, Things would look more professional if maybe the flowers/vase were done correctly on the table and we got less shots of the salad. The program does have excellent content and these things just detract from the message.

  8. Great conversations! I love both the old hymns and the new ones. What is the difference between a song that's in a book and one that we see on a screen of they both point us to Christ?

  9. I enjoy everyone of these dinner conversations. SO great to see the authenticity and hear the tough conversations.

  10. I love how God answers prayers I wasn't even sure I had prayed. I am a worship leader, and I've been feeling unsure about what I do lately. Today I was searching for a different video and came across this one instead. God used all of you to reach my heart today; to offer encouragement and enlightenment on the calling in my life and how to serve Him and lead in my church. Thank you for sharing this conversation.

  11. We need to "sing songs that matter". When you sing songs that matter, lives are changed for the Kingdom. Solid theological lyrics, singable tunes in accessible keys for all to sing, not just the worship team. I introduced 10,000 reasons to a church and some of the biggest supporters of that song were the 70 and up folks. My favorite Travis Cottrell song is "The Blood of Jesus speaks for me". It matters what we songs we choose and especially what we sing.

  12. Great conversations. I enjoyed so many nuggets of wisdom and insight throughout. I especially appreciated Sandi Patty bringing the Bible verses into the explanations of what "worship" is too. I'm sure she is a wonderful teacher at her church.

    The insights into prayers were good too. Loved hearing from Michael W. Smith about how he "prays Scripture" and how "motivation and posture" are so important to worship and to living life with God. All of this and so much more were affirmed throughout.

    Love, laughter and honest hearts in these conversations makes them so enjoyable and interesting. Such a blessing. Grace, wisdom and unity are other aspects I've love in all the "dinner conversations" I have watched. Thanks for saving us a seat at the table! 😉😊

  13. love the conversation! But why eating while chatting! I´m sure there are better settings for a conversation like this.

  14. Genesis 22:5 “And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you."” 1st mention…Worship is Bowing down….humbling yourself before God, the God of the Bible, for He is worthy.
    In Exodus 3:12 we read
    “So He said, "I will certainly be with you. And this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain."”
    The word “Serve” is also translated worship.

  15. Hard to put worship into 3 minutes? That’s why I listen to Bethel live worship and Jesus Culture. Their songs are 10-20 minutes long. You are able to really sense the glory and presence of God. I think they are doing it so right. They are not recording artists first. They are worshippers first.
    Love these videos🙏🏻




  17. Wonderful music is the spirit talking to God or worshiping Him? I Remember when my Pastor warned me about listen to THAT MUSIC when it wasn't a hymn.

  18. I hate to complain; but is there any way that your sound editor could even out the volumes between your guests? In this one, Travis Cottrell's voice is so low, I have to turn the volume way up, but then the others come in loudly.

  19. NO every generation has NOT had their own! The Bible had the same for thousands of years! ANd the Bible shows worship as a bowing down in complete humbleness. NOT what you see with any of these guys.

  20. Yes! There is a combo song of a contemporary song called Surrender, and it can be combined with I Surrender All. There's a combo of How Great is Our God and How Great Thou Art. I once put together a combo of It is Well With My Soul and Robin Mark's All is Well. And Great is Thy Faithfulness and Faithful One. And let's have more combos of contemporary songs and hymns.

  21. as someone who lead worship twice in small churchs it has become one of the biggest thing that will split a church sadly it has been Worship chorus vs Hymns for years. i love and dislike both. i'm honest i dont like every hymn and i dont like every worship chorus either, wish people could get along with this. if anyone has a solution i'm all ears

  22. Sandy I understand lost almost all my family to cancer, and once said There is no God and it's all a lie. thanks for being honest

  23. So a year later this popped up for me to watch. So interesting that it has because if I go to church it's to the Methodist church I grew up in so in terms of worship there isn't much. Anyways, I am now looking for old hymns to listen to. I'm 52yrs old and I'm going back to the oldies. Yes I have Sandi Patti, some of Amy Grants old songs and Michael w Smiths. I have even gone back to Bill Gaithers old and new concerts (yes,😁 even the ones with you Mark.) I don't know if I'm the only one who is doing this but they bring comfort to me in many ways. I think it was Bill Gaither who mentioned how the old hymns help us and I agree. I remember when Maranatha singers were popular and loved them. I miss all of these.

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